AaronWagner7000

Mehau Kulyk / Science Photo Library / Corbis

Excerpt from recent conversation with an atheist on Twitter:

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‏‪@AaronWagner7000

‪#Atheists often tout “logic, logic, logic,” yet many of them believe in a self-creating universe.

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‏
‪@kaimatai

You’re confusing big-bang cosmology with ‪#atheism. An ‪#atheist only rejects the origin story that has the talking snake

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‏‪@AaronWagner7000

Gotcha. So you concur that the universe COULD possibly have been created, then…


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‏‪@kaimatai

No. That’s you employing a strawman fallacy. For creation to be plausible you need some evidence.

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‪@AaronWagner7000

Is it putting words in your mouth, then, to say “you don’t know how the universe exists, but you DO KNOW that it wasn’t “created?”


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‏‪@kaimatai

[1] Yes. That is putting words into my mouth. I said I don’t find the idea even slightly plausible given the lack of evidence.



[2] If it is indeed your claim that your god created the universe, the onus is on you to substantiate that with actual evidence.


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‪@AaronWagner7000

[1] So “possible creation” = straw man, and ”definitely NOT created” = putting words in your mouth. You’re kind of a confusing one.

[2] No, not really. All I’m saying is, If you believe in a self-creating universe, stop saying you’re more “logical” than I am.

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‏‪@kaimatai

[1] It’s fucking simple. You’re trying to ineptly manipulate my non-claim about the origin of universe into a claim.



[2] No, you said atheists believe in a self-creating universe (aka big-bang cosmology). That is ignorant & wrong.


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‏‪@AaronWagner7000

[1] Fine. But please note that it was you who responded to my original statement when it apparently didn’t apply to you.



[2] Not at all wrong. Hawking: “Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists…”


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‏
‪@kaimatai

So again, you elect to practice the deceit of equating scientist with atheist.


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‏‪@AaronWagner7000

No. Again, please read my statement carefully. I said “MANY” atheists. That is a true statement.

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‏‪@kaimatai

I suggest learning more about cosmology… The cosmological concept of ‘nothing’ is far more complex than you grasp

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‏‪@AaronWagner7000

Yes. And it’s also far more complex than YOU grasp. (Many atheists tell me — and rightly so — that “nothing” doesn’t exist.)

I wish more brands would treat audiences like real “friends.” This should be common knowledge by now, but unfortunately, it is not.

* Admit it when you’re wrong or if you’ve made a mistake. (KitchenAid does this correctly.)

* It’s sometimes ok to take a stand on a controversial issue.

* When someone mentions you in a tweet, RESPOND to it! Otherwise, it looks like you feel you’re above your audience.

* Stop saying “We’re sorry to hear about this problem you had with our product.” Just SHOW customers you are sorry by rectifying the problem.

* You know (or should be trying to get to know) who your loyal customers are. Take a second to wish them a happy anniversary, or congratulate them on whatever else they may be tweeting about. (Maybe even a note of sympathy when appropriate.)

This post is a actually a comment I received on the “Two Reasons Why Christians Lose Online Arguments With Atheists” post. I liked the comment so much, I think it should be spotlighted with this post.

It was written by Jenny Huynh, and here’s what she said:
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The atheist has the advantage of making objections and imposing challenges unto the Christian faith, which is a lot easier to do than actually having to address them as the Christian is cued to do. Background knowledge in various fields relating to the issue at hand (archaeology, biology, geology, history, philosophy, mythology, etc.), often times, is seriously lacking and we are at a loss as to how to refute their objections and challenges and/or determine how substantive their claims actually are in light of reality.

Another thing I have personally observed on the internet is that many Christians succumb and end up giving in to the objections and challenges (especially when concerning controversial topics such as evolution vs. creation) and opt for compromises, effectively undermining the integrity and authority of the Scriptures in the process as they insist that certain passages don’t really mean what they say and that certain stories are just that — stories, used to teach a moral lesson and whatnot. In doing this, they provide atheists with ample opportunity to launch a full-scale attack on their [the Christian's] own logic, the Bible’s reliability, the character of God in conjunction to those compromises, and many other things.

There may also be some sort of intimidation factor as well. On many popular websites, atheism is simply… blossoming. Making anti-Christian, anti-God posts appear to merit a lot of likes, thumbs up, agrees, and favor. Posts that defend, relate to, or show minimal credence towards Christianity, in contrast, seem to warrant a lot of ridicule, condemnation, mockery, hostility, and disdain. On internet forums, I see plenty of instances of one Christian arguing against three, four, five atheists at a time. It could be somewhat disheartening and discouraging to have so much opposition, relatively speaking. Maybe some atheists are just better at debating, but having the extra support from fellow atheists must be quite nice as well?

As the “conversation” in my screenshot makes clear, many Christians believe there’s “no such thing as an atheist.” And that viewpoint makes for some very unintelligent arguments when speaking to atheists. (Again, I’m a Presbyterian myself, and I’m honestly not trying to offend other religious folks.)

The no-such-thing view comes from Romans 1:18-25:

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [21] For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. [24] Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Yes, this passage says that God’s eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived since the creation of the world. But I think this is a general statement, and not necessarily a declaration that “there is absolutely no such thing as an atheist.”

When I read from Richard Dawkins and Steven Hawking, and have conversations (online and in real life) with their admirers, it becomes very clear to me that, YES, there are indeed atheists in the world. If you deny the existence of atheism, you have probably not spent much time having conversations with those who claim to be atheists.

The Takeaway
Are you a religious person who frequently gets into online “discussions” with atheists? If so, I hope you’ll reconsider the notion that atheism doesn’t exist. Otherwise, you’ll have no chance of engaging in any kind of intelligent dialogue with your opponent.

I agree with Gini Dietrich at SpinSucks:

Americans love to build people (and organizations) up so we can tear them down and build them back up. We love a good underdog story. Heck, human beings love to watch a good train wreck. It’s why traffic gets so messed up when there is an accident on the other side of the freeway.

But the lesson here is in how KitchenAid handled it. They did everything exactly right. They didn’t try to brush it under the carpet. They didn’t ignore it. They didn’t fire the person who made the mistake (cough, Chrysler, cough). They handled it. On Twitter and as soon as it happened.